NOTE: The transcript below is automatically generated from the audio recording. At the time of publishing the transcript, only some names and titles have been reviewed and edited. It is meant to act as a guide as listeners take in all the details and dates mentioned during our conversation with Steve Greenberg. Grammatical errors should be expected until further editing can be done. Thank you!

START [00:00:00] 

INTRODUCTION, MUSIC

Steve: My name is Steve Greenberg. My entire family was actually with Hess's, my father, of course, my grandfather was with Hess's, you know, my mother was a model on The Patio and then I was with a store. I was a stock boy, actually, from 1976 to around 1979. I would work there during, like when I was in high school, during [00:01:00] breaks from school.

Sometimes I would, like during Christmas time, I would work on a Thursday night. And then during the weekends as a stock boy and put it, and then as a floater, wherever they would need me, I would go. I was just so happy to have a job there when I was around. So you had to be 17 to work there. And I wanted to work there when I was 16.

Dad said, I want you to do is work somewhere else this summer. And then, you know, you'll be ready to come to Hess's the year after. So I had a job at the Holiday Inn in the West end of Allentown. I lived like a stone's throw away from there. So I'd ride my bike to work there and then I worked at the Allentown Fair.

Also, I did that in one, actually one summer in 1975. It was great. I mean, I enjoyed, I think the, the manager of the restaurant was a little apprehensive to hire me. I didn't answer any ad. I just showed up there and I walked into his office. I said, yeah, I want to work here. One, you know, with the reason, you know, just hire me and I might have given off the appearance that it wasn't good.

I'm not, I don't know. I'm [00:02:00] not a hard worker, but, you know, he did hire me and I worked very hard there and got my hands dirty, did everything, you know, it was a dishwasher and really, I enjoyed it and then, uh, The year after, um, I became a stock boy at Hess's. I was on the fourth floor in the hard goods area, in housewares and in toys.

And I worked for a great person there. Her name was Grace Strauss. She was a short woman who was there from the Max Hess years on. Just a real dynamo. And I hit it off with her really well. I was a hard worker, did anything she asked me to do. And, you know, I was a stock boy there, um, in the beginning. And just really enjoyed it.

I like wearing the, you know, I had a uniform with the Hester's logo on it, and I just, you know, really enjoyed, you know, I worked in the toy department, putting out toys for Christmas, and plus whatever she wanted me to do, I would be happy to do the work there. That's great. And 

Kate: First, I've never met your father, Irwin, and please tell him I said [00:03:00] hello and thank you for all that he's done to preserve Hess's history, and I know many of his former co workers will be happy to hear from you on this episode and also learn how he's doing.

So how is Irwin? 

Steve: Good. You know, he, him and his wife are living in Macungie. You know, he's getting a little bit older right now. He was actually playing tennis up until probably five years ago, and then obviously it got to be too much for him. So he ended up sending me his tennis racket when he couldn't play anymore.

And I play tennis and every time I use his racket, I think of him and, you know, how he enjoyed the rack and he was just, he, he was always a good athlete, very active. And, you know, he's still doing well, getting older, but still he's fine.  

Kate: That's great. So your family's role and it's probably the longest and most unique history after the Hess family.

And throughout this conversation, we're gonna talk in great detail about the Greenberg's place in Hess's history. But for now, you gave me a little bit of a rundown about your grandfather and father, but can you [00:04:00] just go into a little bit more detail? Um. About, like, like starting with your grandfather and through your father's roles there.

Sure. 

Steve: Um, my grandfather started there, I believe it was in the mid 1950s. He was in the millinery business in Allentown. He had a store and he just decided that he didn't want to do that anymore. And mister has hired him to be a salesperson in the men's suit department. And, you know, he was very old school, a great salesperson.

I mean, he can sell. A block of ice to an Eskimo in the middle of January. I mean, he was just incredible. You know, just a great salesperson. And he ended up staying until the early 1980s until he was close to 80 years old. And my father started there around the same time, but he ended up going into the buying and executive training program.

He didn't want to be so much in sales. He wanted to be in buying and merchandising. So he started out as a buyer. And then shortly after that, he became a merchandise [00:05:00] manager. On the second floor in the ladies apparel department. After that, he became general merchandise manager. And then, you know, we worked very closely with Mr.

Hess, you know, Max Hess, you know, really liked my father. In fact, after he was there for a couple of, probably five years, we were living at the Tremont apartments at the time. And he said to my father, how would you like me to put a down payment on a house? And my father said, sure, that would be great. So we ended up purchasing our house that we ended up living there throughout, you know, my high school years, we lived on 38th and Highland street.

And at that time, you know, you would go two blocks West of that and you were in farmland. So it was in the far West end of Allentown, you know, in the Portland school district. We're in South Whitehall Township. So anyway, we, um, part of the stipulation was, you know, he would put the down payment on this house, but my father would have to have a phone next to his bed.

And it was one of those phones similar to what they have in hotels that just, you can only call the [00:06:00] front desk. Well, this phone, you can only call Mr. Hess's house. You know, if you picked it up, it would just. Dial into his residence, so I, you know, I wasn't allowed to touch that phone because they didn't, my parents didn't want me calling Mr. Hess and Max Hess would call my father all hours of the night to, you know, come over right away, like two o'clock in the morning. He would call my father to come over right away. Any idea that would come to his mind or anything that he wanted my father to take care of, he would just call him randomly at all hours of the night.

My father would put on his sweats, take a cup of coffee out in a cup and just go to his house. It was like 10 minutes away, but, um, he would have to do that.

Kate: Was there a group of leaders who he would call and they would come over for like a 2am, then at 3. 30 the next person? Do you know? 

Steve: I believe, um, different people.

I know that he would call him. Paul Greaser, who's the executive vice president of has his, who's Pat Fritzinger's father, um, he would [00:07:00] call him all the time. He was really his right hand person and he would call other, um, executives also the financial vice president, pretty much, you know, the public relations manager, who's Maggie Levine at the time, he would just call different people to come over and have a meeting or just take care of, you know, different things that would ever pop into his mind.

At the time, 

Kate: I had just this afternoon watched a YouTube video and heard Kurt Zwikl also saying that his family home was purchased by Max Hess. So it was in the West End. So it was the whole neighborhood, you know, every couple of houses. Did it feel like a little community? 

Steve: No, we lived a little further.

Mr. Hess lived, I believe it was around 27th and Livingston and we lived on 38th and Highland. So it was like a, you know, a 10 minute drive from there. It wasn't really close to where other people lived, but some people did live right in Mr. Hess's neighborhood. I think Mr. Levine lived a few blocks away, and Mr.

Zwikl lived close by also, but we [00:08:00] lived a little bit further out. In fact, my friends would, you know, kid around with me, my friends who went to Allen High School, they would call me a farmer for living so far out of Allentown, um, where I lived. Because at the time, it was really just being developed, that area.

And as I said, you went two blocks west of there, and it was all farms. When I was a stalker with Hess's and a floater, I was going to Parkland High School at the time in Schnecksville, and, you know, after, you know, going to school all day, I was in the tennis team, I would have tennis practice, and then I'd go into, go all the way downtown to Hess's, and going from Parkland High School in Schnecksville to there, it was almost, it was like, I felt like I was going into New York City.

Going into downtown Allentown was just so different. How would you get there? So I would drive in with my grandfather. He would pick me up. He would work the same hours that I did at the time. And I'll never forget, he would pick me up at my house. And he never wanted to pay for parking. So we would end up having to park near Allen High School, near a [00:09:00] big cemetery.

I'll never forget parking where there were no meters. And I was like, oh, you've got to be kidding. So we're going to walk from here all the way to Hess's. And that's how I'd get to work. Um, I'd go driving with him. Wow. That seems far. We wouldn't park near Allen High School, but it seemed like it was pretty far.

It was a good, almost a mile away that we would walk from where he would park the car into Hess's. I remember just walking a long time. 

Kate: And did your grandfather stay in the sales role his whole career there?

Steve: He did. Actually, he never wanted to retire. And when he was getting older, I mean, he was there until his late seventies.

And my father was like, you don't think it's time for you to retire. I mean, I think he had a hard time being on his feet all day at that time. And he said, you know, what, what else am I going to do all day? So he never wanted to retire. And he ended up leaving, you know, just at the very end before, um, he pretty much passed away.

So. And it really kept him going. He loved it.

Kate: Were there other families that had three generations working there? I [00:10:00] know I've heard of, you know, father and sons, mother, son, uh, combinations, but never quite having a grandfather take his grandson to work.

Steve: Yeah, not that I recall. I mean, that was a bit unusual.

There were a lot of fathers and sons, as you said, that worked there. But I think it was a bit unusual to have, you know, my grandfather driving his grandson in. It was really, it was fun. Were you 

Kate: At that age, able to separate yourself from him and know that your manager was your manager and your grandfather wasn't your manager, you know, or were they your dad and grandfather in your business?

Steve: No, they were, um, you know, I was very close to my grandparents, you know, I lost my mother very young when in 1970, she had cancer. So pretty much, you know, my grandparents, you know, until my father remarried, pretty much took care of us. So we were, you know, we were very close to my grandparents. They would drive, drive us different places, you know, my grandmother didn't drive.

My grandfather would drive me different places. And so it was very close to [00:11:00] him. And you said your mother was a model? My stepmother, Dianne was. He met. My stepmother, Dianne, you know, in probably 1971 at Hess's, um, she was a model and then they ended up getting married in 1973. I'm very close to Diane, you know, we still would talk all the time and she really raised us from, uh, from when I was 13, 14 years old until, you know, I left the house.

So we were very close 

Kate: 

In the Context of nature versus nurture. Would you say it was the in the Greenberg nature to fit the Hess's mold so well, meaning your family values just aligned with the Hess values or did your grandfather learn? What he was nurtured through his position there, and he kind of adopted those values and built his family upon that.

Steve: We, our family was always very hard workers. We worked very hard for, you know, at any job that we did. We were, I would say, especially my father, myself, you know, very creative [00:12:00] also did whatever it took to get the job done. So, you know, we're always very honest as well. So I think because, just from osmosis, I think I, um, Yeah, it was a very good employee also just watching them and, you know, copying what they did.

Kate: And then after college, I'm assuming is when you went on, you did not go back to work at Hess's for a period. 

Steve: Yeah. You know, I definitely wanted to be in retail just from growing up in that environment. I went to Syracuse university, university graduated from there. And my father didn't want me to come to Hess's right away.

He wanted me to really roll with the punches at a different retailer. And at the time, you know, I wanted to be in New York. Um, I didn't really want to, I was single. I just didn't want to live in Allentown at the time. So I ended up, I was with & for almost five years, went through the training program, became department manager with them, became an assistant buyer and associate buyer, and then from there I came to Hess's.

I ended up being part of the training program was you had to become an area manager in one of [00:13:00] their branch stores, and they tended to be in the very, in the large metropolitan areas, they were, they had a cluster of stores in Dallas, in Miami, in Philadelphia, very prevalent in the New York area, and I was at their store in Ballard Kenwood, which is on the main line, right outside of Philadelphia, and I was there for a year as an area manager.

And then part of the training program was you would go back to New York as an associate buyer. I did that, and then I joined Hess's. I had enough in New York at the time, and I, you know, decided to join Hess's as a buyer after that.

Kate: When you were at Lord & Taylor, did you have your finger on the pulse of what was happening at Hess's? And were you ever, like, comparing? Or was there a lot of industry talk happening around the table during the holidays? 

Steve: Yeah, I definitely come home for the holidays and, you know, my father would always question me what I was doing, what was happening at Lord & Taylor, were there, you know, what their expansion plans were, their computer system, things like that, so we would always compare notes.

It was interesting. The [00:14:00] chairman of the board at Lord & Taylor. Didn't want to have a sophisticated computer system. They just felt like he wanted the personal attention of writing sales slips in front of the customer. They were, I mean, they expanded, they had, I think, 40 locations, yet they really didn't have much of a computer system where at that time has just had a great MIS department.

So that was a big difference. Was MIS. That was management information systems, computer system. And at Lord & Taylor, I'll never forget, if we wanted to know how something was selling, we would have to take the stubs of the clothes home with us, and count the stubs, look at the style numbers, and that's how we would know if something was selling.

Or at Hess's, um, you would get a computerized printout, and then that's how you knew, you know, that an item was selling. And then eventually, Lord & Taylor did, um, have a computerized system. I think they realized as they were expanding that they needed a better system and they really had to upgrade and it wasn't going to cut it for a salesperson to write out the sales.

And then I'll never forget at the end of the night, you have to tally up all [00:15:00] the sales and it would just take forever. You'd be there an hour after the store closed just trying to figure out where your sales were for that day. And it got to be too much and they needed a more sophisticated program and different things.

I mean, they were a very sophisticated company, but just when it came to that, They were very, you know, they were behind the times as far as their computer system.

Kate: And we're talking  1980 to 1985 ish that this was? Yes. What people talk about Hess is being innovative or ahead of his time in every aspect from just Max Hess Jr. seeing people's potential to merchandisers knowing what the next. Big thing would be, I've never heard of anyone speak of them, like in terms of technology being ahead of the time or on par with retailers in larger cities, would you say they were?

Steve: I think they were a very progressive company as far as their, um, systems and their merchandising.

So I do feel that. They were ahead of its time. The only difference was, [00:16:00] um, when they started to expand, they didn't, they really concentrated in the so called B markets. They didn't expand to New York or Philadelphia or Miami or Dallas or Chicago. They tended to go where they could be the number one retailer and they didn't want to have a lot of, they felt that it wouldn't cut it for them to have to compete with, like in Philadelphia, they didn't want to compete with a Strawbridges and Clothier and a John Wanamaker.

And at the time, Gimbel’s was very big and there was a Saks Fifth Avenue in Philadelphia and other retailers as well. So they wanted to expand in more of the, you know, the B markets markets that were similar to Allentown, like Harrisburg, Stroudsburg, Pottstown, Chambersburg, Pennsylvania, and not the major cities.

You know, when they started to expand after Mr. Berman took over, um, they started to, they had, uh, the Westgate Mall. That was her first store that was, um, more of a neighborhood store. It was smaller. It was a hundred thousand square feet. It was very successful. And then they [00:17:00] opened a store, I mean, Easton and Palmer, which was very successful.

And that was about the same size as Westgate. Then they opened up at, hes south, and then they opened up at the Mary. They bought Mary Sachs. And that was in downtown Harrisburg. And then from there, the feeling was that they wanted to open up a big store in downtown Harris, downtown Lancaster. And that turned out to be, things were very good up until that point.

Then they opened up this big store in downtown Lancaster, which is almost the size of Hamilton, the downtown store and Hamilton street. And. That store was a, it turned out to be a disaster. It was going to be, it was supposed to be a downtown like renovation project where Hess's was going to come in with hotels and smaller specialty stores.

And what happened was everybody else backed out of the project. So you had this big Hess's and nobody else. And the sales were very difficult. Uh, the store was very large and the banks told Mr. Berman that, you know, if you don't close the store, we're not going [00:18:00] to give you the funding to expand anywhere else because they, you know, just the store was such a disaster.

So they had, uh, ended up closing that store. It opened up in 1971. They closed it. I believe it was 1973. And then they, after that, they expanded into other markets, more in the malls. And not so much in the downtown areas.

Kate: Speaking of the malls, you said when we talked to the phone, like, in fact, you and Carson were talking about some things and that questioning, and I know the answer.

So I hope we get lots of answers from you. One of them was Carson and I were talking about, I wonder why there wasn't a Hess's in the Lehigh Valley Mall. And go ahead, tell me the truth about that. 

Steve: So the Lehigh Valley Mall opened in 1977. The plan was. To have other, you know, more aggressive retailers come in there at the time has, they had competition at the lower end.

You know, there was Laneco in Allentown. There were two boys came or shares and all of a sudden Bamberger's and John Wanamaker was coming [00:19:00] in and they really wanted to have a location in the Lehigh Valley mall, but Kraftco Yeah. Owned the mall. And I think my father and Mr Berman and some of the executives at the time went to the mall developer and said, listen, why can't we come in instead of Bamburgers?

And they said, no, you know, you have enough stores in the, in the Lehigh Valley. And I don't think Hess's will be enough of a draw. And then they decided we would let you come in there if you close the downtown store. And that wasn't going to be in the cards. You know, at the time, the downtown store was doing over 40 million a year, which at that time was a lot of money.

They offered to close Hess's North on, which was like a stone's throw away from the mall, but they, that wasn't enough for the mall developer. They said, no, we don't care about Hess's North. We want you to close downtown and they couldn't come to an agreement. So that's why they never, you know, went into the Lehigh Valley Mall.

It would have been too much of a risk at the time for them to close downtown Allentown and move everything to Lehigh Valley Mall. And that's where everything started and there just wasn't an [00:20:00] appetite to close that store and move to the Lehigh Valley Mall. They would have liked to have a store there, but they didn't want to, they didn't want to close the downtown store.

19, 

Kate: I'm sorry I don't have this in front of me, 1977. During those decisions, what was your father's role? Like his job title at that time?

Steve: He was, um, general merchandise manager. Let me just go back a little bit. So when the company changed hands in 1968, at the time, I think Mr. Hess knew, I think the reason why he wanted to sell, he knew that there was going to be a major competitor coming in.

He really never wanted to expand. So he felt that it was a good time for him to sell out. He thought it was better for somebody else to worry about it. He had a great run at Hess's and he just wanted to sell and he wanted to make sure that the company would be in local hands. So Phil Berman ended up being, he was a chief investor of the buyout, but my father was part of that too.

And Roy Hertz, who was executive vice president, it was part of that [00:21:00] Jerry Mandel, who was the GMM, the General Merchandise Manager of the hard goods area was part of that. And there was somebody by the name of Walter Ambler, who was the vice president in charge of finance. It was part of that too. So it was a management group that came in.

It was mostly the executives plus Mr. Berman, who bought out the company. And at the time my father was general merchandise manager in charge of fashions.

Kate: So what was that day like in 1968 when your father finds out that Max Hess offered to sell the store to Phil Berman and the story is at a cocktail party?

Steve: Yes. My father wasn't at the cocktail party. You know, I think he saw that it was in the cards probably a year before, you know, that Mr. Hess was in. Didn't want to expand. And I think he realized that the future of houses had to really be to expand. There was definitely going to be competition coming into the area.

You know, my father, he was 38 or 37 at the time, and he wanted to be part of the management. And so he came up with some money [00:22:00] to be part of the buyout. It was very stressful at the time. My mother was very sick. She was in the hospital in Philadelphia. She had cancer. And I don't know how my father did it.

You know, my sister and I, she was, she's a few years younger than me. And we were at home by ourselves. My father was very busy at work. He didn't know what my sister and I were doing at home. We had babysitters, but it wasn't the same as having a mother at home. So I think it was a lot of turmoil in our family at the time.

But we got, you know, my father got through it and became very successful with the company. 

Kate: If the Lehigh Valley Mall opened in, do you say 

1977? Yeah, 1977 Lehigh Valley Mall opened. So 

what competition did Max Hess see coming in in 1967, a decade earlier?

Steve: There was talk, I'm sure, there was talk that Gimbels wanted to come in to the Lehigh Valley, which was a very good retailer at the time, you know, similar to Hess's.

Very aggressive, very well merchandised. They were very big in Philadelphia and in the New York [00:23:00] area, Pittsburgh. And there was a rumor that they were going to come in. And I think John Wanamaker also, there was talk that they were going to come in also. Mr. Hess owned the land at the Lehigh Valley Mall, and he was toying with the idea that he was going to open a grand bazaar.

Where the Lehigh Valley mall was and to have food stores here, boutiques, a huge Hess's, he wanted to have a store there as large as the Lehigh Valley mall. The problem was he was going to have to borrow a lot of money from the banks to do that. And he never wanted to borrow money from the banks. He wanted to be in charge and he never wanted to answer to the banks.

So I think because of that, also he decided it was time for him to sell. That's what the story was. That's interesting that his. 

Kate: You know, desire to not depend on the bank was stronger than his desire to continue Hess's, which I've heard he was all about it, or continue his journey with Hess's. I guess he trusted it was in good hands with Phil Berman.[00:24:00] 

And 

Steve: Mr. Hess actually had a lot of class. When the owner of Zollinger and Harned died in the early 1960s, Mr. Hess took out a full page ad in the morning call paying for the ad just as a tribute to Mr. Zollinger saying that, you know, he should rest in peace, what a great businessman he was, what a good competitor he was.

And he, you know, put out a full page ad as a tribute to Mr. Zollinger. So Mr. Hess really had a lot of class. 

Kate: Let's just Say in 1968 for a minute, you know, so your dad was not at the cocktail party when Phil Berman was offered the store, but Max Hess Jr, um, suddenly passed away a few months after that. Do remember right after he sold the store?

Steve: was,

um, you know, pretty set off and on. I remember he was at the same Philadelphia hospital that my mother was at. So my father would, um, you know, of course be with my mother at the hospital, then he would, um, ask. Betty Hess, you know, Mr. [00:25:00] Hess's wife, would you mind if I went in and, you know, saw Mr. Hess too, and just talked to him for a little bit?

She said sure. you know, and his room, I think, at the hospital was pretty close to where my mother's room was. So I do remember that, that he would, um, talk to Mr. Hess even after, shortly after he left the company. x

Kate: Wow,  that's, what a coincidence. Yeah. Was he sick before selling the store?

Steve:You know what? I think off and on he did have health issues for that last, I believe from 67 late to 1968.

I believe that he did have some health problems. I don't know specifically what it was, but he did have some health issues. Then he did get better when he sold the store. I don't know what happened, but shortly after that, he did pass away.

Kate: By the  time he had passed away, were he and your father true friends or colleagues?

Steve: No, when, when my father worked there under him, my father considered Mr. Hess as his second [00:26:00] father. You know, there's, there's another funny story. My, he took my father and I believe my mother at the time, uh, he took them on a cruise with, he went on a cruise with Mr. Hess and Mr. Hess's wife, my mother and my father.

And my father lined up, they were on this cruise in the beginning. He lined up everybody on the, all the deck people, he lined them all up and he ripped, he started ripping up a hundred dollar bills and gave them out to all the people on the deck. He said to them, if you give me good service on this cruise, you won't get the other half of the hundred dollar bill.

And at the end he would give him the other, you know, they were the service he got was fine. So he'd give him the other half of the hundred dollar bill. That's the kind of thing that he did.

Kate: you said he had a lot of class. He wasn't a subtle class. He also must've been just like a maverick, just a big force walking into a room.

Can you describe? Being around him. What that felt like. 

Steve: Yeah. I mean, I was very young when Mr Hess was there, but I do remember being in his office. He had me part of a toy [00:27:00] council during one of the Christmas seasons. He had some of the executives children on the floor with him in his office. He showed us different toys that he wanted to promote for the holiday, the Christmas season.

And he wanted our opinion. He would sit down on the floor with us, show us different toys and get our reaction to the toys. Do we like this? What do we like about it? Do we, we don't like this toy while we don't like it. She's very nice. If I give it, he would give us candy in his office. He had a great way about him.

Kate: I've seen pictures of him crouched down on the floor with a circle of kids around Christmas time. 

Steve: So that was one of those children, actually. 

Kate: Were you friends with children of the other executives? Like, did you guys spend a lot of time in the store together?

Steve: We're pretty close friends with some of the, um, some of these other executives and their, um, their children, definitely.

Most of them did go to Allen, and I was probably the only one that went to Parkland. Most of the people lived in the Allentown schools, for sure. 

Kate: Let's stay on Max Hess Jr. Any other stories your father would tell you about him?

Steve: You know, back in the 50s, I think [00:28:00] it was like around 1957, the quiz show scandal, he paid for the buyer to go on, and the subject matter was supposed to be Bible stories that the buyer knew a lot about, and Max has promised his buyer a Cadillac.

If you go on the show and promote houses, and it turned out that, um, they, at the very end, they changed the, what the subject matter was going to be about, they changed it from Bible stories to baseball that the buyer knew nothing about. So, I think the buyer got the 1st question right on the 99,000 question.

And then the 2nd question, he got wrong. So he was on the show, maybe 5 minutes and then was disqualified. But, um, he still, he still got to mention Hess's, that he worked at Hess's department store a few times. Yeah. 

Kate: So what was the crime that he had committed?

Steve: What happened was that he paid for the buyer to go on the show.

He paid a public relations company off in New York to, um, have his buyer go on. I think he paid, it was probably around 15, [00:29:00] 000. And he wanted the buyer to just talk about, to go on there and talked about, talk about Hess's as much as possible. So what happened was, I think a year after. They came in with a congressional, somebody from the Congress came into the store with a subpoena that told Max Hess that he wanted him to come in and testify to the Congress, as far as what happened.

And he told the person to drop dead. And Paul Caruso was with Mr. Hess at the time. And he said, take the subpoena and rip it up. I'm not going on any, I'm not going to do this. I did nothing wrong. You know, Mr. Hess's lawyer advised Mr. Hess. You better, you know, go to this hearing. You're going to be in a lot of trouble.

So he ended up going on the hearing to make a long story short. He was on this congressional hearing. They were asking him a lot of questions and he spent the whole time promoting this story. And they appreciated Mr. Hess going to the hearing and he got out of everything. It was fine. And he ended up giving, uh, Hess a lot of publicity.

So it turned out to be fine.

Kate: [00:30:00] You mentioned Maxie Levine, public relations. Did he have like a East coast team and a West coast team to like connect to Hollywood?

Steve: Mr. Levine was in house. He was Mr. Hess's, you know, public relations manager at that time. And then he had Max Rosie. Mr. Levine's real name was Max, but his nickname was Maggie.

That's what everybody called him. And then Max Rosie was his New York public relations. I'm consultant who actually was the public relations manager of Nathan's hot dogs also, and he came in to has a few days a week. Did you ever hear of the, you know, they have the Nathan's hot dog eating contest. Well, he actually Max Rosie actually got that idea.

He started that hot dog eating contest at the has his Oasis snack bar. And did that for a couple of years. And I think what happened was people were at this hot dog eating contest. They were like throwing up. They were getting sick all over the Oasis snack bar. So Mr. Hess put a stop to it, but that's how we got the idea of having the Nathan's hot dog eating [00:31:00] contest.

And they still have that to this very day.

Kate: It's huge. I mean, you know, these competitive eaters have become almost like stars. 

Steve: then got that idea and, um, did that in New York for Nathan's Hot Dogs in Coney Island.

Kate: When the subpoena comes, Max Hess Jr. isn't sweating it, but is someone like your father sweating it? And the other people like, oh my goodness, what's going to happen? 

Steve: Well, my father, I think just started working there at the time. So I think he was a buyer, so he really didn't know much about it. This was back in the 1950s. Mr. Hess really, um, marched to the beat of his own drum. He didn't like to be told what to do.

That's why he never wanted to be controlled by the banks either.

Kate: You know, let's talk about his connections or his love of Hollywood.

Steve: Yeah. Mr. Hess was really in awe. Of the, um, movie stars in Hollywood, like Liberace, Rock Hudson, Ja Ja Gabor, and Superman, and Batman came in. Not all the time, but you know, [00:32:00] I would say probably five or six times a year, it would have a movie star come in.

When, when Mr. Berman came, he liked politicians to come in more than, um, than the movie stars. And other people who were our authors and he had some movie stars, but not as much. 

Kate: I'm curious your opinion. Do you feel like he ever wanted something more meaning like to work in Hollywood or was he always focused on the store?

Steve: No, I mean, the store with it was his life. I can never see him with a big box, a big chain of department stores. You know, that definitely wasn't his thing. I picture him almost being like a Hollywood movie producer. 

Kate: So obviously, along with Max Hess Jr. taking over Hess’s after his father and Charles passed away, you know, after the Depression, he's the one who brings the chandeliers, the glitz, the glamour… inside his home as a youngster, was it fancy?

Steve: Probably not so much, but I think he grew up going to the [00:33:00] movies a lot. In Allentown, and um, he was just in awe of the movie stars. The story was that his father, Max Senior, and his uncle, Charles, they didn't really want to put a lot of money into the store. And it became very old fashioned and very dowdy.

So when Mr. Hess inherited the store, he pretty much took the ball and ran with it. He added a lot to the store. Chandeliers, promotions, fashions from all over the world, TV fashion shows. Toy shows on TV, things like that. He really, he wanted Hess's to be a world class department store. He inherited the store and he really, he was amazing.

Um, at the time when he took over the store, the store might've been doing 5 million a year and ended up doing over 40 million a year, which in today's dollars was what, probably 400 million, close to that 350 million. So it's just unbelievable that one store in a town of a hundred thousand people can do that kind of [00:34:00] business.

Kate: When there's other department stores right down the street.

Steve: Yeah. Um, there was Leh’s, there was Zollinger-Harned, a lot of discount stores. There were two guys, Sears. To be honest with you, that you didn't have, he didn't have the competition at the higher end that they had later, but he definitely had lower end and mid tier competition.

Kate: Right, right. In 1985, your father's quoted in the paper as saying, “I'm not a workaholic, but I'm probably a Hess’s-aholic, if there is such a thing.” How did his devotion to his role into the store manifest itself?

Steve: Okay, so in my father's whole life, pretty much was the store also. He ended up being President.

Phil Berman sold the company in 1979 to Crown American Company, Frank Pasquerilla, was the owner of Crown America and it was really a smart buy out at the time because there were shopping mall developers and they were going to build the malls and they were, they had the malls and Hess's was going to be [00:35:00] in the anchor store and the malls that they were building.

And they were, the malls tended to be in secondary locations, Stroudsberg, Harrisburg. Um, so it was really a good compliment to what Hess's was doing. So it was really a, I believe a smart acquisition. I think what happened years later, you know, back in the early, late eighties, early nineties was, um, has expanded a little bit too fast.

And then, you know, they bought out a company, two big chains in the South, one in Tennessee and one in Kentucky. And it turned out that the Southern customer and the customer in the North, in Pennsylvania, in that area, they were pretty much night and day. It was a different customer. They were putting the same merchandise in the stores in the south.

So my, you know, father went to, you know, Mr. Mr. Pasquarello, and said, listen, to really turn this around, we really need a buying staff in the south. And you know, and in, in the north. And at the time, Mr. Pasquerilla really didn't wanna spend any more money. [00:36:00] He felt he was spending enough so he didn't wanna make that change.

And, you know, my father really, um, had other disagreements also, the way things were being, they only wanted, he only wanted Hess to expand in the crown walls. So because of that, there were just major disagreements and my father thought it was best that he retire, that he ended up leaving. And you know, I think Mr. Pasquarello, thought it was a good idea also to have new management come in.

I was there for, um, Uh, five years, and then he ended up retiring and I stayed there for another two years. I just, I just wasn't, you know, I saw what was going on. Mr. Pasquarello ended up hiring somebody by the name of Bob O'Connell, who came in from Hornes of Pittsburgh.

I think at the time Hornes probably had 11 stores, maybe 12 stores. And you know, and he became President of Hess's and he did some good things, but, um, I think he was making changes just for the sake of making changes. He got rid of all the models in The [00:37:00] Patio. He wanted to shorten the menu of The Patio.

He felt there were too many options on the patio menu. So he was, I think, and then the other thing, Hess's had a really unique logo. It was a lower case logo the script logo, which is very unique at the time and he wanted block lettering as a logo instead and that was the logo he used in the newspapers yet.

He didn't want to spend the money on the storefronts to change the logo So it was a bit confusing to the customer to have one logo in the newspaper another logo on the storefronts He was making changes for the sake of making changes. And then the other thing was he was evaluating different departments as far as your gross margin.

He got rid of departments. He got rid of the toy department. He got rid of major appliances, sporting goods, some of those low margin departments, which has had to be more of a loss later and to make it more of a shopping experience. And Mr. O'Connell, um, Decided to get rid of those departments and just have the high margin departments in the Hamilton [00:38:00] mall store And I think all those changes was really the beginning of the end So, um, I just saw what was happening.

And then the other thing things got very difficult at the end manufacturers Stopped shipping to Hess's at their very end Um, the manufacturers have a credit line from factors and they're told whether to ship something or not to ship like Haine’s hosiery They won't ship you if the factories tell them not to ship Hess's.

And there were a lot of companies were advised not to ship Hess's. So they didn't have enough merchandise on the shelves at the very end. So that was the beginning of the end. Why were they told not to ship? Because Hess's started to lose a lot. They started losing money. The banks and the factories, they want to see a balance sheet of the company.

Before they ship the company, they were just won't authorize shipments. You have to be profitable where the company or the factors won't authorize the shipments and has started losing too much money. That's when, um, the company was sold. Mr. [00:39:00] Pasquarello his health started to fail. Also, he had a massive heart attack.

I think things got very difficult at Crown. So he wanted, he was trying for him to sell Hess's. He couldn't find a buyer to buy the entire company. So he sold Hess's in pieces. I think Dillard's bought a lot of the stores in the South. I believe Macy's bought the stores in upstate New York. The Bon-Ton bought Lehigh Valley.

Locations including the downtown store to go over those locations, it was sold off in pieces ended up. I worked for a company in New Jersey called actually, they, um, they had the, um, the stores for, oh, look, it's an evening where it was a great job at the time, actually bought for all their outlet stores.

The Oleg Cassini merchandise, plus I bought merchandise to compliment what Oleg Cassini carried. So it was just a very interesting position and it was just very rewarding and I decided that to take [00:40:00] that opportunity. This is nobody's fault, but usually when a new CEO comes in, they'll, and this wasn't the fault of Mr. O'Connor, but they come in and they want to bring in their own people. 

And, um, when my father left, you know, Mr. O'Connor was hired by Mr. Pasquarella. The feeling was that Mr. O'Connell was going to let go of the senior management and bring in his own people. And to a very large extent, that's what happened.

Kate: When, when there's no interest in really keeping Hess's Hess's, you know, it doesn't matter if someone's been there for so long and knows all this history. Whereas like, it sounds like the Berman transition, there was a lot more interest in, in keeping it what it was.

Steve: Yeah, so actually, it's interesting.

When Mr. Berman, he wanted to get out. Um, I think Mr. Berman lost interest in the late 70’s. He was more interested in his art and not so much in retail. He was very active in the Philadelphia Art Museum. He was on the board of directors of that. And he just lost interest in Hess's. So he was, in 1978, he was very close to selling out Marshall Fields [00:41:00] in Chicago.

He was very interested in buying Hess's. And I think my father talked him out of selling to Marshall Fields because the thought was that Marshall Fields was going to buy Hess's and just get rid of everybody and have their, you know, buying all done out in Chicago. They ended up not selling to Marshall Fields and he kept the store for another year and then Crown American bought it, which was great because he kept everybody, Mr. Pasquerilla wanted the current management on. 

So there was no turmoil and everybody was, um, still with the company for the most part.

Kate: I was at Hess's once or twice as a kid. I don't really remember it. And I still collect the memorabilia. So what does your office look like? Or your dad's office? Is there just Hess's stuff everywhere or just like the personal tokens, like awards or photographs?

Steve:Yeah. Um, I do, um, some of the trophies I got being like the sales leader, being the department with the biggest increase in sales. I have some of those trophies. I, and then I also have like the jar of sugar with a different color. Kept that, [00:42:00] and I would love to get other things too. I think I have my, um, stock boys uniform somewhere.

I kept that, the blue shirt with the Hess logo on it. Some of those items I, I, you know, held on to. And some of the articles too, um, and I know my father has those when women's were would come in and interview my father and some of the promotions that my father like has at one time ran a Scandinavian promotion in the late sixties and my father led a big, big contingency to the Scandinavian countries.

They went to Norway, Sweden, Finland. He went, uh, three bars were there. The head of public relations went, the store photographer went, Bill Zwikl. And at this time, Mr. Hess was in his last year and the head of public relations would write articles in the New York, in the Qua Chronicle about their daily goings on in Copenhagen and what they were doing, what the buyers were doing with the fashion houses.

They were visiting and every day there were articles and they. in the Allentown [00:43:00] paper. And then they came back and ran a huge Scandinavian promotion in the downtown flagship. And my father really enjoyed that type of thing. Every year they would run a different promotion. One year they would have fashions from Italy, fashions from France.

This was back in the late 60s. You know, and then I think the last Big one that they had were fashions from the from Scandinavia, and they had this all double exposed in different departments in the store. They had men's Scandinavian fashions, children's Scandinavian clothing, a lot of ladies, merchandise, accessories, handbags. And it just made the store very exciting. 

Kate: It's probably what led to people feeling very special and worldly when they were in there.

Steve: Yeah, and this type of merchandise really, you know, maybe didn't sell that well, but it really helped the 10 men's shirts sell, the ladies 20 blouses sell, things like that.

People would come in just knowing that the store carried unusual items fashioned from all over the [00:44:00] world also. And it was just a draw. For people to come into the downtown store, and I think at the end, um, that mistake was gone. And, you know, I think that's what really hurt business. Another thing that I think that was a major mistake at the time.

This was in the late 70s malls were becoming very big. The downtown association wanted to put up canopies. Downtown, downtown Miami did the same thing where they put canopies in the downtown location. And what they had to get rid of, Hess's had to get rid of that big beautiful sign that they had on top of Hess's and canopies were put up.

They had, they couldn't have traffic on Hamilton Street and that turned out to be a major mistake. It hurt business not having traffic on Hamilton Street and customers didn't like walking, especially at night. They felt unsafe. Walking under the canopies was very dark after a couple of years, they, they torn down the canopies and they had a very open area again on Hamilton street.

They allowed cars. So that was [00:45:00] a very, you know, they tried different things, but that was a mistake.

Kate: So you couldn't drive down the Hamilton street at all back in the…

Steve: I think it was around 1975.

Kate: And so it was basically the side from the buildings on either side of Hamilton street to the street where the canopies like a cattle shoot on either side and that's what they call the Hamilton mall. Correct?

Steve: It started as far north as probably 11th Street, maybe 10th Street, and ran all the way down to around 6th Street, this large canopy.

And there were other stores, I mean, that was over Leh's, was over Zollinger's, over all the specialty stores, Emil Otto, whatever stores that were downtown, Spencer Gifts, and they thought it would help business, but it ended up hurting business.

Kate: And was this the city of Allentown or the economic development branch?

Steve: Yeah, it was the mayor and the downtown improvement district. The feeling was, I think my father was against this the entire time, but he was [00:46:00] overruled by everybody else. So, you know, my father said, well, maybe it'll be good. We'll try it. But it wasn't good. And the main thing is they had that big, beautiful sign.

That was like the biggest retail sign. Outside of New York City, that blinked on Hamilton Street, you could see for miles. And they had to tear down that sign and for the, you know, so this canopy is going to be put up. And I just think it was a major mistake.

Kate: City officials at that time, did they just, because you're in it, did they not see it as an iconic thing that should stay? Or they were just, they're grabbing straws to try to improve. 

Steve: I think other cities were doing this, you know, like I mentioned, I believe that they did this in downtown Miami and, you know, it might've been good there, it might've helped business, but not in downtown Allentown. So their, their vision was, was stronger.

Yeah. It was definitely and it just didn't pan out again at night. People didn't feel safe. It was very dark under the canopies. People felt, you know, they were going to get mugged [00:47:00] at the time and walking around at night, you know, at 9 o'clock at night under these, you know, big canopies and they just, you know, it wasn't good for the downtown area.

Kate: Okay, yes. So the fact that the Hamilton Mall project didn't pan out, business was still good for Hess's overall, because they were, had success in all these other locations. 

Steve: Yeah, Hess's definitely, when the Lehigh Valley Mall opened, there was no, there's no doubt about it. Hess's definitely lost market share.

But it wasn't that much has to still have that customer base to shop there and the downtown store was still profitable. And the other thing was after Mr. Hess they did a lot with the downtown store. They added the customer parking deck. Which was huge at the time. They opened up the trimmer shop.

They opened up an art gallery. They had a new trimmer shop, which was like a barber shop. They opened up dental shops, a dental shop, an optical shop. [00:48:00] So, a photo lab, a photo studio. So they really opened up a lot. Um, they really did a lot to the downtown, the downtown store. They did have a pet shop at the time.

Another thing he opened up was a big auto center on Newark nine street. So they, they really did a lot to the downtown store for the first probably five years after, you know, Mr. Berman took over. And it was interesting, you know, talking about the, if you don't mind me just expanding, even the Hess's pet shop was very unique.

It wasn't like a pet shop that you would go into, like they had at Woolworths, that they just had some guppy, you know, fish and things like that. They actually had electric eels, they had man eating piranhas, things like that. So it was like very, um, even the pet shop was like state of the art and very, they had unusual type of pets.

They had a kangaroo there. Um, that they sold, and I think Mr. Hess ended up taking it home, and that was his pet kangaroo. So just very, very unique things, even in the pet shop.

Kate: Now could someone [00:49:00] at leadership level pitch to Max jr. we should get a kangaroo, or did all those big ideas come from him?

Steve: I believe a lot of those ideas came from Mr. Hess. It was a really a one man operation, a one person operation. He was just such a great marketer. And most of the ideas came from him. I would say an exception is when my father was merchandise manager on the second floor. He thought it'd be very like a great idea to carry top women's topless bathing suits.

They were Rudi Gernreich Topless Bathing Suits, who's a designer in Austria. And so they carried, I believe they bought 12 stores in the downtown location. Nobody in their right mind would buy these topless bathing suits, but there was a lot of publicity and not one bathing suit was sold. 

So Mr. Hess went to my father, like, now what do we do? We have these 12 topless bathing suits. So my father said, well, let's run an ad in the paper that we were, we sold out of 11 of the 12 bathing suits. Um, that'll be a great, you know, that'll be great for publicity [00:50:00] Mr. Hess. Oh, that's a great idea. Let's do that So they ran an ad in the new york an article in the new york times saying hess's department store in allentown sells out of Rudi Gernreich Bathing suits they ordered another 24, you know They never sold one, but they got a million dollars worth of publicity out of 12 bathing suits

Kate: Yeah, I mean, that, that's an iconic story.

So the fact that that came from him is just so cool. Your dad had edge to him. It sounds like if that was one of his ideas.

Steve: Definitely. He like to buy unusual things. So he, um. You know, pretty much learned under Max Hess and pretty much always had the Max Hess doctrine of carrying usual things. Never lose sight of what your bread and butter is.

Carry the Alfred Denner and Chouse and merchandise that your bread and butter customer, men's hour shirts, carry the stuff that customers come in to buy. You'd always have these different, more unusual items from Europe [00:51:00] also to give the customers a reason to come in. 

Kate: And that's pretty bold to take out an ad in the New York times that's false. Was there any auditing by the designer to say, Hey, oh, you sold all these and then, or it's just, you could do what you wanted to do?

Steve: I even think that the designer, Rudi Gernreich, he probably thought that they sold out of these bathing suits also. There was no way of knowing for sure if they sold out or not.

Probably somebody from Hess's, one of their wives could have come in and bought all these bathing suits. So nobody knew for sure what happened and they couldn't prove that these bathing suits were not sold.

Kate: Did your dad get a confidence boost from, from that? 

Steve: He did. You know, you had to be careful too and you had to buy merchandise that was going to sell.

Mr. Hess was, you know, a great leader. But, um, one, two things about him. He would let you go if, um, you lied to him and if you made the mistake, the same mistake twice. He would let you make mistakes, but you are gone [00:52:00] if you ever lied to him or if you made the mistake. Same mistake twice. So he had to be, yeah, he liked risk taking, but he also had to be careful.

You know, my grandfather tells me the story that at the time there was some people were taking cigarette breaks in the stock rooms in the men's department. You know, Mr. Hess was worried that there was going to fire, there's going to be a fire that was going to start from the cigarette people smoking in the, in the stock rooms in the men's department.

So he wanted to get to the bottom of who's smoking in the stock rooms. And he thought maybe my grandfather was. So he came down to my grandfather and said, Joe, are you, I'm smoking in the stock rooms. And my grandfather said, no, Mr. You know, Mr. Hess, I don't smoke. And Mr. Hess said, okay, I hope not. And he came down maybe a week later to my grandfather to talk to him, to see what was selling, what wasn't selling.

He reached into his pocket, Mr. Hess just to grab a cigarette. He says, Oh, Joe, by the way, I don't have a match. You have a match with you? And my [00:53:00] grandfather said, no, I told you I don't smoke. And Mr. Hess said, okay, okay, good. Exactly. One thing about Hess is too, you're really, um, and I learned this in my later career too.

You had to have a great work ethic. You were not allowed to punch in late. You know, if you were just supposed to be in at nine o'clock in the morning, nine oh two and a half or nine oh three was considered late. Get a punch in at nine o'clock. You know, whatever your story was, if you hit traffic, you know, maybe one time you could punch in late, but that was it.

You were expected to be on time. The other thing was, um, you had to be a good, you know, when, you know, when I was a floater, when I sold in the men's department, you weren't supposed to say, may I help you? Cause what's the answer going to be? No, thank you. I'm just looking. So you're supposed to get into a conversation with the customer.

Like the, you know, these men's arrow shirts in this rack, there were, you know, they were regularly at 25 today. They're on sale for 17. 99, they're 25 percent off today. So you're expected to get in conversations with the customer. [00:54:00] Plus you're expected to upsell. If you're selling a, you know, a man suit, um, you were expected to have better tie to go with the suit.

How about a shirt to go with a tie? How about cufflinks to go with a shirt? How about a nice Prince Gardner wallet? You're expected to really, not in an obnoxious way, in a nice friendly way, but you were expected to really upsell. And be really good at that. 

Kate: And you were taught that in the orientation and they kept track of all that?

Steve: your sales numbers and who is a leader once a week.

I think they would come down and they would have a graph of yourselves compared to the other people in the department and they would show you the rating. And, you know, if they were, if it wasn't up to par, they would say, well, you know, you know, say, why are yourselves better? Maybe you should be doing this.

Maybe you should be doing that. Okay. So, um, yeah, they definitely tracked your sales. And then the other thing was you were, you don't, not only sold, you had to put out the merchandise, you had to do displays, you had to do everything. When you weren't busy with the customers, if there were no customers in the [00:55:00] department, you had to put out merchandise, you had to do displays, you had to do everything.

Kate: Were there any phrases or philosophies that you heard as a stock boy, you know, 1976 and then through coming back or let's say 1986, over that decade, that stuck. Something that was just always at the core, no matter who was in charge. 

Steve: Yeah, definitely that logo, you'll find the best of everything it has, because it was another phrase, and then be first, be the best, be exciting.

When I would, um, I was a merchandise manager, and we would, you know, be in New York buying from a manufacturer, and we would not only buy the basic merchandise, we would buy merchandise that was unusual, too. That we would want to carry in the stores truly helps sell the more basic merchandise. So we would always be looking for those unique items, not only the bread and butter items, but with the more items that sold out.

So that was really something that always [00:56:00] stuck with me. Not only. To carry the merchandise that was obvious, but to carry goods that were, that were, you know, more unique and special.

Kate: And you mentioned like a management training, an internal training program that you had gone through.

Steve: Yeah. When I, um, when you start out with Hess, you have to go through for the first week, you have to go through a, you know, if you're a sales person, you have to go through a sales training program.

And that's where I was taught never to say, may I help you. Because, um, you know, the answer is no, thank you. I'm looking, never say that just, I'm getting into a conversation with the customer and other techniques also, you know, be friendly, be outgoing. The other thing is you had to be presentable. If you didn't, you know, look the part, if you were dressed.

Sloppily or, um, if you had a score code that was too big or something, they would send you home to change. Um, and then, you know, if you took the bus into work, you'd have to take the bus home to change. And then you have to come back, punch back in and be on the floor. So they didn't put up with, um. You [00:57:00] know, people that, you know, didn't look up to par.

Well, now, you know, if you go into a Macy's, it's totally different. 

Kate: I had a guest tell me that she, the way she could describe what she wore going to work was what she would wear to a wedding now. 

Steve: Yep. You had a, you know, men had to wear, in the beginning, they had to wear solid blue. Or black, um, and ladies had to wear the same thing, those colors, then things got to, you know, you had to look presentable, you had to wear a suit, but the color scheme definitely changed in the 70s, where you can have a brown suit, a tan suit, different colors, you know, because, um, you know, fashion's definitely changed, and women too, they had to look nice, but they were allowed to wear other colors.

Kate: Are there any other things that you've heard on this podcast since you've listened to every episode that... are perhaps inaccurate or half a story or, or something you remember differently or something you want to correct me on. 

Steve: You know, the main thing is why, um, I wanted to, you know, I think there was question as to why Hess has never went into the Lehigh Valley [00:58:00] mall.

And you know, I explained why that that was never the case, that the mall developer, um, wanted management to close the downtown store and that was definitely never not going to be in the cards. And, you know, talking about some of the mistakes that were made, the big store in Lancaster, that was a big mistake.

And then the Southern expansion also, um, at the very, you know, in the late eighties, I think has, has definitely expanded too fast and into markets that they definitely didn't understand that they needed a different buying staff or if they were ever going to make those stores successful. You know, Hess's had a great name in the Lehigh Valley and in, you know, Pennsylvania in general.

And so the stores in those, in, in the Lehigh Valley always did well, like in Palmer, Westgate, South, just because that customer knew the downtown store. Yeah. When they went outside the Lehigh Valley to Maryland, to Virginia, and definitely in the South, people didn't know what Hess's was. So, um, That's where things became very difficult.

Kate: Right. So, [00:59:00] you know, there's one store, then there's five, then there's a dozen, then there's 40, then there's 75, I think was the number, 72 stores. 

Steve: When they started to close, when they started to close off stores, they had 76. 

Kate: So that was the tipping point. Basically when you're down in Kentucky and Tennessee.

Steve:Yeah. When, when the store first changed hands in 1968, they had one store. It's downtown store when Mr. Berman sold, they had 19 stores and then finally they had 76 stores. When, um, Hess's, um, began, when they started to sell. 

Kate: There's a news article that in 1986, Hess's considered buying 15 stores from John Wanamaker's of Philadelphia.

So to go from 1986 to 1989, where there's... Set now seventy six stores in three short years they expanded so fast so that it seemed just three years earlier in nineteen eighty six there was no indication [01:00:00] that they were moving too fast or they comfortable with one makers because it was a Pennsylvania philadelphia. Regional store as well.

Steve: To be honest with you, Kate, that was, um, that Wanamaker's thing. It was more of a publicity stunt for the Wanamaker's, but it was a very low offer. So it was never going to happen. It was a very, it was more of a publicity stunt. They never really had intentions of expanding into Philadelphia just because it was such a competitive environment.

He had straw and cloth there. He had Wanamakers at the time. He had gimbals, he had Saks Fifth Avenue, Lord & Taylor and the mainline, you, you had stores. It was just, it was too competitive. Then you had King of Prussia open and it was just, it was not an environment for Hess's. That would never have done well there.

Kate: Yeah, that makes so much sense because, you know, the headline caught my attention and then reading, you know, a couple paragraphs in, I think it was even your father quoted as saying something like, yeah, we didn't ask how much it costs yet. But so it's like, you know, they were [01:01:00] not even really throwing a hat in the ring yet, but they got a headline as though they were.

Steve: They wanted to make the appearance that they were looking to buy, um, any reasonable, you know, offer at the time that things were great. And if it was a good opportunity, they would take advantage of it. They did have a store in Plymouth meeting, um, that they, they took over a Lett Brothers location.

Back in 1978 and the store, I believe that even that store was a mistake. It was like the mall in Suburban Philadelphia. It did well for the first year. And then King of Prussia opened, which killed the lead, which killed, um, Plymouth meeting. So that was the, um, you know, when King of Prussia opened, it was too much competition for the Plymouth meeting mall store.

Kate: Right, right. So when, when, um, they're trying to do these publicity stunts. To say that things were great is what you said. Who are they trying to prove that to? Investors themselves, shoppers, or all of the above?

Steve: I would say the general public to the show, to the consumer, they wanted to show the consumer that, [01:02:00] you know, things were great at Hess's they were, they were expanding and things were good.

You know, certain stores were doing well, you know, they were just trying to convey that, you know, that things were very good out there and any reason we'll offer that. Came up, they would take advantage of it.

Kate: Did you ever hear any like first hand anecdotes from friends and neighbors, shoppers who, who your family knows from the community and they're just like, sorry, we're shopping at the mall now.

Cause we can park there. Like what was the general public? What did they find more attractive about these malls than Hess's? 

Steve: You know what? Yeah. A lot of my friends, um, actually when the mall first opened, I believe that the downtown store lost of the, a lot of the high end mortgage share that that customer started going to the Lehigh Valley mall.

And then a lot of the mid tier customers also because of the convenience factor. You know, Bamberger's, where they offered, they had great merchandise and so did John Wanamaker, and it was much more convenient for the customer to park there. [01:03:00] Although a lot of the customers, they would, they would go to the mall and then go to Hess's to downtown, but a lot of people weren't, they were just going to the Lehigh Valley Mall.

At that time, the trend was to shop in the malls and not downtown. And so then when that Lehigh Valley Mall opened, the downtown store did definitely lose a lot of mortgage here. No matter what they were going to do if they added departments things like that There was it was a no win situation that they were going to lose a lot of business at that mall.

Kate: What was your dad's attitude when he's Watching this happen, you know, is he? Nervous, angry, or still motivated as a Hess’s-aholic to find new ways to get people in.

Steve: You know, to be honest with you, I think when Bamberger's opened, he was very upset. You know, a New York competitor like that, Bamberger's was part of the Macy Corporation.

They were based in northern New Jersey, and um, they had a lot of, they did a lot of, TV advertising, very aggressive in [01:04:00] newspaper and, and TV advertising, radio advertising, very promotional. So my father saw them as a big threat. So when they opened and ran their opening sales, my father took out some very hard hitting ads in the call in the morning call.

And what he would do is show what Bamberger's was running. Let's say they were like advertising a Cuisinart toaster oven at 39. 99. He would show a Hess's Cuisinart toaster oven, the same thing at 29. 99. And he would have page after page comparing what Bamberger's was having versus what Hess's had to get the customer not to go to Bamberger's, but to Hess's.

So he, you know, he was very aggressive and he saw them as a threat. He wasn't happy when they opened.

Kate: Was he always wanted to know what was going on? What ads were going in the paper or is just when things when they were in those kind of dire situations or had an opportunity to do something like that, that he wanted the ad copy to come to him and the artwork to come to him to be the final stop.

Steve: I was very, I remember when I was very young. [01:05:00] Growing up in our house on Highland Street, he would have newspaper ads from all over, from the New York Times, he would have Bloomingdale's ads, you know, Lord & Taylor ads, Macy's ads, all over the floor, ads in the Philadelphia Inquirer, Gimble's ads, Strawbridge's ads.

He wanted to know what the other stores advertised and what has his, you know, compared to Hess's ads. Then he would show the different buyers, you know, look at this side. Why don't we, why don't we have the same merchandise? So he was very in tune as to what the other retailers were doing.

Kate: So it wasn't so much of like how the art department or promotions was promoting the product.

Steve: It was look at their merchandise versus ours. Yeah, I mean, the, um, the, um, art department and the promotions department would pretty much run the ads that the senior management wanted them to run. They would run great ads and they would do all the layout and everything, but the specific ads would come from the executive management down to the buyers.

Kate: Okay. Were there any other [01:06:00] things that were just publicity stunts that maybe we might not know about?

Steve: Yeah. It's funny. Um, this is something that, so when, um, you know, two guys opened, they were, um, very aggressive retailers. They were very similar to a DJ Corvette out of the New York area.

They were based in New Jersey. But they were from the New York, the owners were from the New York area and Max has saw them as a threat when they open, they would run a lot of newspaper advertisement. They did a lot of, I don't know if you remember, they ran a lot of TV advertising in the 1970s and 80s and they had the blue laws.

in the 60s, um, up until the, yeah, from the 60s, uh, early 60s to the late 60s. And the blue laws were that you were not allowed to open on a Sunday in Pennsylvania for religious reasons. Sunday was considered the day of Sabbath and you were not allowed to open on a Sunday. And Max Hess adhered to that. He would never open Hess's on a Sunday.

Yet Two Guys decided that they were [01:07:00] going to all of a sudden. You know, the hell with the blue laws. They were going to open up on a Sunday and Mr. Hess was furious that they did that. And he made a complaint to the state. I think it was maybe the consumer protection authority, but he made a complaint, why are they allowed to open on a Sunday when nobody else is?

And what they did, what the state was, they came in and arrested everybody in two guys, all the, everybody that was working at two guys that Sunday from the store manager down, they hauled everybody off to jail. You know, they didn't have to stay in jail for a long time. But it's funny, even the store manager of two guys, believe it or not, he was one of my neighbors on Highland Street growing up.

I was friends with their son. He was arrested along with, um, everybody, all the salespeople in the store. They, um, for violating the blue laws. You weren't allowed to do that. 

Kate: Was that a publicity stunt on their end?

Steve: Um, I think two guys was just, you know, I think in New Jersey and in New York, wherever the locations were, they were allowed to [01:08:00] open on a Sunday.

They couldn't understand why in Pennsylvania they had the blue laws and they were not allowed to open on a Sunday. So I just think the owners decided, well, you know, we're not going to abide by this. We're going to open up on a Sunday.

Kate: Right.

Steve: Yeah, they called the state and, yeah, the state ended up, they called one of this and called the police and, um, they came in and everybody was sent to jail in Allentown.

It was, you had to laugh at that, but that's what happened. So people, the two guys, they had no idea what was going on. They were told to come to work. It wasn't their fault. They did what they were told to do. And everybody was being arrested. They didn't have to stay in jail overnight or anything, but, you know.

They, um, were all hauled off to prison, to jail. 

Kate: Yeah. Wow. Any other publicity stunts that are unknown to the public, but then some of the ones that are well known, what stands out to you?

Steve: I do remember like, um, it's funny. I remember Soupy Sales. Do you remember him? He was like a game show host years ago.

[01:09:00] Like he was on what's my line, which is like an old time games, the game show. Um, and he. Did tv shows he was a sort of a stand stand up comedian He had him come in and I'll never forget I was a Lord & Taylor as a buyer at the time and he came to my department at Lord & Taylor on fifth avenue and I said just to be self He was with his wife.

I said, oh my god. Um, I met you when you were at Hess's in Allentown I met you on the patio. He said oh my god. I remember that and you know, we laughed about it a little bit And that was interesting. I met him at Hess's and then I met him in New York at Lord and Taylor at the time. So that was just really a lot of, that was interesting.

Kate: Yeah. So when you're at Lord & Taylor and you were talking about how Hess's was more of like the, I forgot what you called it, like the B market as a larger. Metropolitan department store, were you paying attention, I mean not you, but other people who work there, paying attention to the B, the B team, basically, and if you were, did Hess’s seem to stand [01:10:00] out?

I mean, maybe you can't answer that objectively. Do you, or even your peers at Lord & Taylor, did they know about Hess’s?

Steve: Um, they did, especially some of the, um, some of my friends in the, um, training program, in the executive training program at Lord & Taylor. Some of them were from Pennsylvania. So they definitely, they knew what Hess's was.

Other, other friends that I had never heard of Hess's. They hired people from all over the United States in the training program. So there were people from Pennsylvania and they definitely knew of Hess's and other people didn't. As far as competition, the executives didn't really worry too much about Hess's.

They were focused more on B. Altman at the time, Saks Fifth Avenue, um, Lord, um, Macy's a little bit more of the, um, competitors in the major markets, Neman Marcus, those types of stores, not so much Hess's because they weren't in the same locations. There were more in the secondary locations. So they didn't really worry too much about Hess's.

Kate: Let's go back to [01:11:00] like, you know, 1950s. Do you think legacy was a motivation for Max Hess Jr? Do you think he knew that? All these decades later, Hess's would mean so much to people. Was he trying to build a legacy or just a department store?

Steve: No, again, his department store was the whole, his whole life. And he loved the people that work for him in the store from the sales people to the stock people, everything, um, buyers, merchandise managers.

He really took an interest, um, in his, um, employees. In fact, um, at the, you know, for the, you know, my father at the time, he got married a little bit later in life. It was in his late 20s at the time people were getting married earlier. And he said to my father, I think it might be a good idea for you to think about getting married.

I think he wanted more stability in my father's life. So he took, you know, nowadays you wouldn't think of a manager asking you to, you know, it's about time you get married, you know, or maybe a few months later, he met my mother and they got married. So it's funny.

Kate: [01:12:00] How would you describe, you know, 1996 or those years leading up to it when the flagship store was closed and even when the building was torn down? How did that feel to you and your family?

Steve: Okay, so when that happened, I was living in New Jersey at the time. I was working for the Oleg Cassini stores, so I didn't. I wasn't really in downtown Allentown that often, except when, you know, when I would come to Allentown to visit my family, but I wasn't really downtown very much at the time and I didn't really see Hess's being torn down.

So I felt bad about it, but I didn't, I wasn't really in Allentown at that time when they tore down Hess's.

Kate: Had it been such a thing of the past for your father, he was just enjoying retirement. 

Steve: You know, my father was involved with the Lehigh Valley Hospital Center. He was on the board of directors of that.

You know, he was playing a lot of tennis at the time. So, um, he did feel bad and he missed being at Hess’s, but I think he wanted to also move on. And my father always said he would end up [01:13:00] leaving Hess’s. When he no longer had fun at what he was doing. And I think, um, in the beginning, you know, towards, you know, towards the, until towards the end of his career, he really loved what he was doing.

And at the end, you know, he didn't really agree with the way things were being done and he stopped having fun. Um, everything that he was doing was being questioned. So it was definitely, it was time for him to move on. 

Kate: Right, right. What do you think he had the most fun doing? 

Steve: I think when he was a buyer and a merchandise manager, as far as traveling throughout the world and buying, um, different kinds of merchandise, I think that was, that's what he enjoyed the most.

He enjoyed, um, opening up, opening up locations, but I think his true love was in buying and merchandising.

Kate: Did he expect the same when he was in charge as like Max Hess Junior did to be available for a phone call at 2:00 AM or had times changed by then?

Steve: I think as time changed, you had to be a little more careful and you, you couldn't call people at, you know, [01:14:00] two o'clock in the morning.

I think, you know, you know, you get into a little bit of, of a problem, so you, you couldn't do that. You had to start, if people, if you had to call people in later, I think he had to start paying overtime. The labor laws changed. So I think he wanted to, but at the same time, he didn't want to have a lawsuit either.

He was more careful also. He would call me all the time and, you know, but I think he was, um, and I think he's called a lot of his senior management. I knew he knew that they wouldn't complain, but, um, he was afraid to really do that with other people. 

Kate: Did your parents attend all the famous parties at Max Hess Jr's house?

Steve: They did. In fact, sometimes Max Hess didn't want the parties at his house, he wanted his executives to host the, um, the parties. So I do remember some parties being at our house, and then other parties were being held, like at Paul Greaser's house. And other executives, um, homes, but a lot of them were done at Mr. Hess's house too, but others weren't.

Kate: Was it an honor to be asked to [01:15:00] host one or was it a lot of pressure? 

Steve: No, no, it was an honor and he didn't really have a lot to do a lot. He would call the, the waitresses from the patio and the cooks from the patio. To come in and help out. So all you would really have to do is have a party.

You didn't really have to cater it or do the cooking or anything like that. You just had the party at your house. So it was more of an, uh, like an honor. You felt good about it.

Kate: And was it, um, like always the same crowd, meaning, you know, executives and friends, or was he someone who just. Collected people who were potentially like new contacts for him.

Steve: I think he had people that were like prevalent, prevalent in the Lehigh Valley. He had the heads of Mack Trucks, Bethlehem steel, Air Products, like definitely the head of the, you know, Mr. Miller, who was the chief editor of the morning call newspaper. He had people like that. Business associates, also the exec, the executive team at the store.

He had different people like that come to the parties. 

Kate: Was he [01:16:00] like the Great Gatsby, like just the host who was front and center, or I know the parties were over the top and there was celebrities and all this stuff, or was he, was he the loudest guy at the party, or was he just the cachet of having parties of that caliber is what was important to him?

Steve: He, um, he actually was in the show. He had a very nice way about him. He was very friendly. Yet he did things that were over the top, you know, when he had the party, he had, um, like hot dogs parachuted, uh, over, you know, he had people that would bring in the hot dogs. He would have them parachuted over, like, on top of his house to come in.

He would have alligators in the swimming pool. So he definitely had things that were very unusual that and that were over the top, but he wasn't the loudest, 

Kate: but he wasn't making speeches in the middle and… 

Steve: well, yeah, well, I mean, he would welcome everybody, but he, um, would definitely mingle with everybody and he wasn't, uh, um, arrogant or a show off or anything like that.

He definitely had a nice way about him. [01:17:00] 

Kate: So besides like lying and making the same mistake twice, was there any like product? Or a person or a Lehigh Valley thing that he drew the line at this. We are not selling this. We are not going to this country. Anything that he just didn't want to be a part of or to be, so it has to be associated with.

Steve: He never wanted to. Be a true closeout company. He, you know, at some of the discount stores would buy merchandise and have like all of one size, like, just like in the latest department, it would just carry size 10s, 12s and fours and not middle sizes, just because it would get such a good price in that buy.

He never would put up with that. He wanted a full size run. Of an item, he did have a budget store in the Bargain basement. He did carry offer dinner and he did have merchandise. He wanted to cater to everybody. So he did have the lower end products, but he never wanted to be a close out [01:18:00] company. He didn't never wanted to carry secondary merchandise that was damaged or that was a regular in any way.

He wanted to be, he wanted to have classic merchandise.

Kate: Yeah. So just your answer to that question, considering. That he passed away in 1968. You know that in such good detail. Do you know that? because you Heard them talking about it around the store Did your dad come home and tell you about that at dinner or again?

Like you said through osmosis, you just knew what the values were and therefore Yeah, how do you know that that what he was doing in 1960? Um, I just weren't working there. You weren't all you know, you were he was younger.

Steve: Yeah He would tell me and he would even tell me that oh my god I have to come up with all this money to be an investor You know, for the banks, he wanted to be part of the buyout.

Kate: You mean your dad would tell you? 

Steve: Yeah, he would tell me. That's what I mean. Would say, [01:19:00] you know, maybe we can't do this and that go on this vacation because he wanted to be part of the investment part of the store and he had to come up with a lot of money, so he said that, you know, he would tell us that things would be tough and don't expect a lot this year.

Because of what was going on and he, you know, wanted to be part of the buyout. So that's how I knew. 

Kate: Okay. Okay. So he shared a lot of information about what his role

Steve: and after that, um, after the buyout, you know, then he made a lot of money. Um, then things got very good. The company went public. So, um, after a couple of years, things got, you know, it was very good.

And he made a lot of money. Yeah, 

Kate: that was, this has nothing to do with him making a lot of money, but I was wondering before, did the executives or, you know, people that let's just say that Max Hess Jr. bought a house for, did you get more stylish just from being around his style and from seeing great fashions?

I would imagine that your own name. sense of style or your own home decor would, would, um, [01:20:00] evolve being around or traveling, I guess, would just make you.

Steve: Something that I remember, um, when, you know, when I was in junior high school and in high school, you know, I'd go shopping at Hess's and, you know, my father would want me to buy these unusual.

Shirts and pants in the in the children's department, and I was going to Parkland Junior High School and Parkland High School, where they, you know, the students there were jeans and T shirts, and they really dressed down. It was more of a rural environment and you wouldn't see people wearing. You know, shirts from the Scandinavian countries or Italy, they just, you know, dress very modestly.

So when I wore these, um, unusual clothes, sometimes they would make fun of me, like, oh, what are you wearing this for? What are you trying to prove? Things like that. So I do remember that. Yeah. I would come home, oh, I'm not going to wear this anymore. Everybody's making fun of me for it.

Kate: When you worked Inside the story you know your early days there as a stock boy did you try to distance yourself from your family working there i mean i guess it's a [01:21:00] lot of fathers and sons work there together but did you feel you had to prove yourself for yourself.

Or did everyone treat you just like any other employee?

Steve: No. I mean, one thing I do remember again, when I first worked as a stock boy, I was in the fourth floor, um, under Mrs. Strauss, Grace Strauss. I'll never forget her. She was just amazing, like a real dynamo. And she said she really liked having me there because the other stock boys in the floor, there were, let's say five other stock boys.

They were on their best behavior when I was there because who my, who my father was, they felt that they better not screw around, that they better. Do what they were told because I didn't care what they did, but they felt that they better do what they were told because I was there and I had to work very hard and do whatever I was told.

Yeah, that's great. I'll never forget. Um, you know, I would start work when I was in high school. I wouldn't be able to get to there until, let's say. Four o'clock in the afternoon because I'd be in school all day, I would've to go to tennis practice. So during the week, um, I wouldn't get there till, let's say [01:22:00] four, uh, four o'clock one day my father called Wyn that I punched in, you know, maybe five minutes late, maybe three minutes late.

I might have hit traffic on the way. And he knew that I punched in late. So he said to me, why do you, you know, why'd you punch? You couldn't get there at four o'clock. Why'd you punch? You know, why do you have to come in so late? So from then on, I never, um, I was, made sure I was on time. Wow. 

Kate: So you kind of touched on this before but could anything have been done differently to help Hess's survive into the 21st century? Besides expanding too fast and too far?

Steve: I do think that may, I think, I think it could, you know, if they did things that were, let's say things similar to Boscov's, it's interesting about Boscov's, Hess's, um, never would go into Reading.

And Boscovs were never going to the Lehigh Valley. That was like an unspoken rule. It was never put on, you know, on paper. But Boscov and my father had a deal that, you know, they would never [01:23:00] expand each other's territory just because they were too similar. So I think, you know, Boscovs obviously is very successful now.

They have stores in Allentown. And throughout the Pennsylvania, I think if they, um, and they expanded a little bit slower, and I think if Hess's did that same type of thing, I do think they would have been more successful. I think the southern expansion, and the way that the stores became to water down, and their niche, they really lost the niche.

I think really that's what, um, was the straw that broke the camel's back. And at the very end, when they started to get, they got rid of the models at the patio. They got rid of all the low margin departments. They shortened the menu to the patio, just things like that. It made the patio nothing more than a diner.

And it made the downtown store nothing more than a big, like a big cold in downtown Allentown. It really lost its brand. So I think that's what [01:24:00] happened. 

Kate: This is kind of random, but I started this podcast thinking that I was going to be on a quest to track down all the chandeliers and through that quest.

I would uncover the human interest side of Hess's, but the, the chandeliers would just be the, the symbol.

Kate: Can you talk to me a little bit about them? I mean, I know that they were liquidating them for, um, many years. Yeah. Before the store closed, do you remember how they got down and where they went?

Steve: Yeah, the, um, actually it's funny.When Mr. Hess decided to buy all these chandeliers, he bought them from Italy. Um, it was an on buying trip in Italy and he, you know, really, he, he bought all these very great looking chandeliers. He called my father into work. 1 day. He had all the lights turned out on the 1st floor and he had a few of these chandeliers.

And he said to my father, do you like this? These chandeliers? I said. He said, Oh, my God, they're amazing. He said, well, I have 60 more coming in and there were people loved him. He didn't have only on [01:25:00] the first floor. They were scattered throughout the second floor and third floor of the store. And it just made, made the store look like a Saks Fifth Avenue.

And, um, they started to get rid of the chandeliers at the very end. When they felt, you know, they had to raise more money and they felt that customers didn't really care about it. And that was a mistake. I think customers really liked the chandelier. And by doing that, the store really got, it was part of how the company really got watered down.

And they should have, it was something that shouldn't have happened. I think they just had, they got rid of the. The storefront downtown with the canopy, getting rid of the chandeliers, one thing after another, closing off the windows on Ninth Street, just some of the things like that really made the downtown store not what it once was.

And those are some mistakes.

Kate: So we have a couple minutes left. What else would you like the public to know, or, you know, sharing any [01:26:00] memories or anything that even just for archival purposes can contribute to Hess's legacy? Is there anything we didn't cover?

Steve: No, um, I think we, I pretty much told you all the, um, you know, pretty much everything I told you about the, um, different promotions when, um, when, um, their murders came in.

The only thing I have to say, which is really interesting. So I left the company, probably it was around 1994. And my daughter was born in 1991 and my son was born in 1993 and they were the last Greenbergs that ever got a paycheck from the company. They ran, they were models for Hess's as far as their newspaper ads and their supplements.

And my daughter, my son and my daughter, they were, um, they were, they're pictured with the Easter bunny on one of the last ads. That has his ran my daughter was a little over one, one and a half. And, um, they, they were in their last catalog at the time. [01:27:00] And they were the last Greenbergs that ever got a paycheck from, from Hess's.

So I think that's a funny story. It's sort of my grandfather, my father, you know, my stepmother, me, and then, you know, my, my children that were like babies at the time. 

Kate: Right, right. That's really incredible. It's quite a legacy. And just so you know, if, if there was a Mount Rushmore of Hess's and the Greenbergs would be, be on there, um, your father certainly beloved.

So he let him know this. Um, I don't know if he'll listen, but every employee who I've talked to, no matter what stage and where they worked, they, when they, Mr. Greenberg, and they'll sit up a little bit straighter and they look me in the eye or even talking about Mr. Berman. They're just, they're so grateful for the time that they worked there.

And some of them were, you know, started as stock boys. I've talked to people who worked there for summers and winters in college and other people. Who were, you know, is [01:28:00] their first job as an adult or, um, and just on their last day because they were going to make more money somewhere else. You know, they're like in their twenties.

They just walked out on Hamilton street and cried. 

Steve: My father was had an open door policy. And if anything was on their mind, you know, he would keep his door open and he wanted the, the coworkers, the employees. If there were a stock person, salesperson, a buyer, whoever they were, he wanted them to come in and tell him, my father was on their mind.

He didn't care. So he was, so customers, I'm sorry, the, the coworkers always appreciated that. He always had an open door policy.

Kate: You said that you discovered the patio podcast when you were just Googling Hess's. So, so you still do that. Are you looking for maybe old. Articles or old history or just seeing what else is new.

Steve: I'm still in the fashion industry. I'm with a big accessories company in the LA area called Nicole Lee. So I always stayed in the fashion industry. [01:29:00] I'm vice president in charge of sales for the company. So I think Hess's and my work, the work ethic there, and you know, my drive for excellence always helped me in whatever I did.

And sometimes I just. Google to see what people are doing or what things are being said about Hess's. So that's how I came across the patio podcast and I have to say, you know, you you're really doing a great job with it. You conduct great interviews and very you made it really interesting for me. Thank you.

Kate: And thank you so much for for doing this. You were on my list as someone to speak to because You and your family had such a big part in that. Um, so your nostalgia, you know, if you could close your eyes, like where does it come from? Does it come from your family spending time there together? Does it just come from your memories of the patio?

Can you define your nostalgia for Hess's a little bit more for me? And real quick, like, do you think it's the same as. [01:30:00] All of ours. 

Steve: Yeah, I think just growing up in Allentown at the time, it was a great place to grow up and Hester's was a great place to work at. It was a great working environment. The people were overall like very nice and had a great way about them.

Everybody worked hard. People work together very well. And it was just, you know, you move on. That's one thing you have to things are going to change. There'll be, you know, Hess's will never come back again. But it's always nice to have that nostalgia and look back to things, how, you know, things were. And um, it was just a great part of my life, you know, growing up in Allentown and, and working at Hess's.

So I think that's, that's why I had that nostalgia.

Kate: Yeah, that's great. It was a, a very special place. You know, there's a lot of, lot more history, a lot more articles for me to read. I'm just scratching the surface of, of it all. So talking to someone like you really, really helps. It helps me, um, and it helps the people learn more and the next generation of people learn about [01:31:00] Hess, but also kind of narrow what I'm doing with the podcast and maybe some names that I would try to reach out to also who have the insights that you have, but from a different perspective.

Steve: Yeah. I'm happy to talk about it. And I tried to cover items that I didn't hear. Being talked about before, I think that was a purpose of, you know, me wanting to do the podcast. Just some things that were never, you know, talked about before.

Kate: I just want to thank you again for giving me your time and for, um, telling our listeners more about the inside workings of the Greenberg family, because you are very beloved characters in this story. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. 

Kate: Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, we will keep in touch for sure.

Steve: Okay. Sounds good. Thank you. Okay. Thank you.[01:32:00]